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ON VIOLENCE

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Reply to Imam Ahmed. 2nd October 2001 from Barry Napier

Dear Imam Ahmed

Thank you once again for your response to questions.

This Muslim Forum means to ask very hard questions, and neither of us can afford to become offended or angry. Anger does not answer the questions, so we must stick to the facts, even if we do not like them. Yes, we want peace – but not at any price.  Peace at any price always leads to violence and repression by men who are not so peaceful.

Even though you and other moderate Muslims say true Islam does not support violence, it is a horrible and true fact that those who kill call themselves true Muslims! In the West we look on and wonder just who is the true Muslim, when both of you insist that the other one is NOT a true Muslim! Which one is true? Getting angry or offended does not answer these questions. And refusing to answer the questions only makes us suspicious.

To a (true) Christian, Islam is offensive – but we do not kill Muslims and we do not become angry. This is not a time to just get angry or offended. The whole world wants peace, and I repeat that we wish to live in civil harmony with those who do not share our beliefs.

Roman Catholicism is peaceful until it gains control in a country – then it harasses, maims and kills Christians. This is a fact and it happens today.

There are strict Islamic countries who love the thought of killing non-Muslims. Those in Afghanistan are now threatening to kill all the West and though most Muslims in the West say they wish to live in peace, we want to know if they will arise against us if ever Islam gained the power. In the light of recent events this is a very reasonable question.

In the last few days, Saudi said it will not allow the USA to use its country as a launch base to attack Muslims. What this means is that they know what bin Laden and the Taliband stand for, yet they side with them. How can they claim to be peaceful when they allow such men to rule and to threaten the very roots of civilisation? It also means that other Muslims, at least in the Middle East, are willing to stand by violent Muslims even when it has been shown clearly that they have killed on a massive scale. It shows that they are not willing for those men to be justly opposed or attacked...even though this is what those violent men would have done if a western country had done the same to them!

It is this duality that worries most of us, though many will not talk about it for fear of Islamic violence against them. We have every right to question who is correct and who truly represents Islam, when one group claims peace and one group claims violence.

Let me explain about the Irish situation. Both the Catholic and the non-Catholic have nothing to do with Christianity. Therefore, those of us who are true Christians reject both groups and say they are not Christian. But, violent Muslims are still accepted as Muslims by other Muslims. If moderate Muslims really wish to show the West they want peace, then they must make every effort to show that they have nothing at all to do with the violent men. This would mean saying in public that they are NOT true Muslims. In this way we can see the difference. But, so far, this has not been done and only very guarded statements have been made.

But, even then, it is still a fact that in the UK, for example, there is a mock Muslim parliament. Why should moderate Muslims do this if they really wish to live in peace in the West? Is this not the seed of an anti-Western society? Is it not the beginning of treason? Does it not show that if they had the chance, the Muslims would apply Muslim law to everyone, even if they did not believe in Allah? Does it not mean that Christians would be repressed if they tried to preach their Gospel, or if they spoke against Islam? And does it not mean that any Muslim parliament would punish those who did not believe? If none of these things are true – why plan for a Muslim government?

Something worries me about some replies – you say it is okay to be violent in defence...but how is defence defined? Afghanistan defines it as attacking the USA and others, just because they are not Muslims!

In the Christian scriptures we find that those who are idolaters and who do not obey God, are cast out by God and are not counted to be Christians. Yet, moderate Muslims still call violent Muslims their brothers, by still referring to them as Muslims. If Muslims were a nation, then that would be understandable. But, Muslims are a religious group, not a nation! If you claim that violent Muslims are not acting within the Koran, then why do you continue to call them Muslims? By doing so, you must become as one with them. See my point?

I know that I have been asking the same kind of questions in many different ways, but this is necessary, because I am not a Muslim and do not really understand what Islam is all about, when two groups say opposite things. When one group says it proclaims jihad against all who are not Muslims, then it is vital for us in the West to know if moderates will obey the call, which violent men say is the duty of every Muslim.

Would USA and other Western Muslims take out full page advertisements condemning the Taliban and its violent men? Would they say that such men are NOT Muslims at all, but are only terrorists? Would they tell such men that they are NOT accepted by Allah and will go to hell? I do not think so.  Because of all this, we in the West continue to wonder. We do not want Muslims to get angry or to be offended – we want straight facts and immediate action on their part.

It is said that your Sura 9:33 refers to Christians as ‘idolaters’ to be ‘made war’ against. How else can we interpret that? I have no personal wish to attack or to condemn Muslims. That is not what this site is all about. It is about getting Muslims to say if they are truly peaceful or not. In trying to get to the truth of the situation we have to ask some very hard questions. For many years Christians have not asked these questions because they fear being attacked by Muslims. That is why we must now ask them even if Muslims do not like it. To live together we must be honest with each other!

I appreciate your responses Imam Ahmed. Let us continue to talk, so that violent men within Islam will get the message and be isolated, and so that we can all live in civil harmony.

-----Original Message-----
From: Imam Ahmed [mailto:imamahmedusa@hotmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 5:11 PM
Subject: The "Response" On Your Site

Salam/Peace To You,

In your "Muslim Forum" section, the following have been said:

"As we listen to what Muslims and others are saying on this site, we are coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that the 'true' voice of Islam is not, after all, the voice of temperate Muslims who wish to live in peace (though we thank God that some wish to do so), but those who act out terror and repression."
I must say, I take this to be offensive. Especially, from a site which wants peace between Muslims and Christians. That is certainly not the way to go. And I'm not even going to respond to that.

Then it said:

"We have been sent texts of the Koran that clearly speak of violence and repression enacted against those who are not Muslims. This is why we initially asked why some want peace and others want war."

The above is NOT true. There is no violence spoken in the Qur'an against any people. Unless you count defense to be a violence (which I don't.) You have 'been sent' texts. Oh,how convienient! Why not study such "texts"? While people mistranslate the Qur'an all the time (INCLUDING Muslims,) the Qur'an in Arabic is very much alive ... and you can ask Arabic speaking folks (who are non-Muslims, Note there are plenty of Arabic Proffesors in America who are not Muslims.)

IN the end, the site asks;

"Question: Who, then, is the true Muslim? The violent or the loving?"
I say the Loving. But God answers your question in the Qur'an;

[12.103] And most men will not believe though you desire it eagerly.
[12.106] And most of them do not believe in God without associating others (with Him).

Therefore, the majority of the World Population are non-Muslims. AND, not only that, but the majority of Muslim World are idolators. Please, note that in Islam, idolatry is from doing things God did not ask you to do (and saying He did, which makes the point that another god has told you so beside God) to actually worshiping a thing beside God.

When someone says God is happy when they kill innocent children and innocent peoples in His Holy Name, I can tell you that that person is in full idolatry, regardless if such a person claims to be a Muslim day and night. God Bless!
Imam Ahmed
imamahmedusa@hotmail.com

----- Original Message -----
 From: "Dr A C Clifford" CliffordNRC@compuserve.com
 Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 11:37 PM (Permission to publish received 28th September 2001)
 Subject: URGENT: Qur'an Quotes
 Dear friend of truth: If you believe that no good can come from 'pc' propaganda and that it is urgent that the whole world knows the facts about  Islam, then please forward this to your list.
 Yours in the service of Christ whose truth alone sets people free (Jn 8: 32, 6),
Dr Alan C. Clifford.

 QUR'AN QUOTES
 Selected and introduced by Dr Alan C. Clifford, Pastor, Norwich Reformed
 Church  www.geocities.com/nrchurch
 Extracts are taken from The Koran, tr. N. J. Dawood ( Penguin Classics,
4th  revised edition, 1974; reprinted 1986).
 Of The Koran Interpreted (Oxford World Classics paperback, 1998), the
 English translator, A. J. Arberry states candidly: 'I have called my version an
 interpretation' (p. xii). However, in his introduction, Baghdad-born N. J. Dawood states that he was careful to avoid 'turning the text into an interpretation rather than a translation' (p. 11).

 Those who wish to assert that Islam is a tolerant religion, committed to
 peaceful methods of propagation, should reflect carefully on the following
 quotations. Unlike their less hostile brethren, it is obvious that militant Muslims are more consistent with their 'holy book'. While the justly-condemned violence and persecuting activities of so- called Christians - past and present - are emphatically condemned by the Bible (see Matthew 5: 43-5; 26: 52; Romans 13: 10; 2 Corinthians 10: 4-5; Ephesians6: 12), the Qur'an positively teaches the use of force. The highly contrasting depictions of the character of God in the Bible and the Qur'an and their consequent impact on personal behaviour are too obvious to miss. It is indeed chilling to note N. J. Dawood's reminder that, apart from the opening verses and a few passages in the Qur'an, 'the
 speaker throughout is God' (p. 9):

 'Believers, retaliation is decreed for you in bloodshed' (Sura 2: 178).
 'Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not
attack them first.
 Allah does not love the aggressors. Kill them wherever you find them...if
 they attack you put them to the sword...Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme...If any one attacks you, attack him as he attacked you' (Sura 2: 190-4).
 'Fight for the cause of Allah' (Sura 2: 244).
 'Those that deny Our revelations We will burn in Hellfire...As for those
 that have faith and do good works, We shall admit them to gardens watered by running  streams, where, wedded to chaste virgins, they shall abide for ever...the believers who do good works, whether men or women, shall enter the gardens of Paradise' (Sura 4: 55-7, 124).
 'The true believers fight for the cause of Allah, but the infidels fight
for idols. Fight then against the friends of Satan' (Sura 4: 76).
 'Therefore fight for the cause of Allah' (Sura 4: 84).
 Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home. He has promised all a good reward; but far richer is the recompense of those who fight for Him...' (Sura 4: 96).
 'Unbelievers are those who declare: 'Allah is the Messiah, the Son of
Mary'' (Sura 5: 17).
 'When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find
them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them...' (Sura 9: 5).
 '...make war on the leaders of unbelief...' (Sura 9: 12).
 'Believers, know that the idolaters are unclean...' (Sura 9: 28).
 '...the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. Such are their assertions, by which they imitate the infidels of old. Allah confound them! How
perverse they are!
 They worship...the Messiah the son of Mary, as gods besides Allah; though
 they were ordered to serve one God only. There is no god but Him. Exalted be He above those whom they deify beside Him!...It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true faith to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters may dislike it' (Sura 9: 30-3).
 'Proclaim a woeful punishment to those that hoard up gold and silver and
do not spend it in Allah's cause. The day will surely come when their treasures shall be heated in the fire of Hell,...' (Sura 9: 35).
 'If you do not fight He will punish you sternly and replace you by other
 men...' (Sura 9: 39).
 'Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of
 Allah, with your wealth and your persons' (Sura 9: 41).
 'Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously
 with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate' (Sura 9: 73).
 'Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you...' (Sura 9:
122).

"Dr A C Clifford" CliffordNRC@compuserve.com

---END---

Barry Napier's comments dated 26th September 2001

The format of this section of our site is changing rapidly. At first we said we wanted it only to be used by Muslims. But then we had to add the views of others who were not Muslims, in a separate section. Now, as more views are being added, we are obtaining a greater picture and so the format is being changed yet again...this is what the internet is all about, of course - swiftly changing responses.

As we listen to what Muslims and others are saying on this site, we are coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that the 'true' voice of Islam is not, after all, the voice of temperate Muslims who wish to live in peace (though we thank God that some wish to do so), but those who act out terror and repression.

We have been sent texts of the Koran that clearly speak of violence and repression enacted against those who are not Muslims. This is why we initially asked why some want peace and others want war.

Thus, we are now asking Muslims in the West to be fully public. If they truly wish to live in peace with non-Muslims, there must not be 'conditions' - they either wish to live in peace or you do not. One of the best ways to do this is to put full page advertisements in the press. In these statements must be the clearest indication that peaceful Muslims will remain peaceful. They must speak out against those who want violence. Do not leave doubts in our minds.

We also wish to be told what is to be done about Muslim extremists in the West who publicly admit to hating the West and non-Muslims. They admit to sending men to terrorist camps for training. Why are they still allowed to remain in the West?

It also seems that the extremists eat well and can travel, but the poor souls who live in strict Islamic states under harsh dictatorship are in fear and subjection. These are hard things to answer.

Question: Who, then, is the true Muslim? The violent or the loving?

---END---

Barry Napier's comments dated 26th September 2001

More Questions for Muslims

It is true that we have been given courteous and sensible answers by Muslims, concerning the link (if any) between Islam and violence against non-Muslims.
It is also true that we see violence by Muslims against other Muslims, in countries such as Afghanistan.
Many Muslims have said they abhor the violence shown by terrorists, and they say that the violent men are simply 'terrorists who happen to be Muslims'.
This is all fine - but we still have many questions to ask; the answers are vital if Western society is to live comfortably with Muslims, as we wish to do.
Osama bin Laden claims to represent the true face of Islam. In 1998 he said on TV that he wanted all Muslims to obey Allah by attacking the West. During that broadcast he spoke of his hatred for 'malicious Jews and Christians'. He further warned that a "strike against Afghanistan would be seen as a strike against the state of Islam".
Some Muslims have advised me that Christians and Jews are 'people of the Book' and are not considered to be infidels. Yet, Laden sees them as enemies to be killed, saying it is the duty of every Muslim to do this work. He refers to the West as 'scum'...yet many Muslims live here.
Question:
1. How does this reconcile with assurances of peace?
2. What is the 'state of Islam'? Even in the UK there is a mock Muslim 'parliament' and it is said that this Muslim ruling body will take over as soon as it is possible. Is this correct?
3. The fact of Islam's early history - forcing people to be Muslims at the point of the sword - cannot be erased. How can these two extreme views both claim to be Islamic? And which view is the prevalent one in the West?
Imam Abu Hamza al-Masri, who leads the mosque at Finsbury Park London, is also filled with hate. He enjoys Western freedom to speak, yet admits to sending fanatical Muslims to terrorist training camps. In other words, Britain allows him to remain here even though he is an architect of our destruction. He says that what he does is to 'speak the truth about Islam'. One of his colleagues organises similar training - and yet he has the gall to claim disability benefits from the UK state!
Question:
4. There are others like these in the West. They claim to be 'true Muslims'. So, who truly represents Islam - these violent men, or Muslims who claim to want peace?
If Islam does not teach violence against non-Muslims, then it is now time for all real Muslims to stand up and be counted. We in the West have been concerned about the true intentions of Islam for many years. We have watched as Christians have been harassed and even killed by Muslims.
If you are a Muslim and you claim that Islam is not violent, you MUST make this plain to the people in the West. You MUST make a public stand against the violent men of Islam.
There has been talk in the past of Muslims leaders calling for legal action against non-Muslims, including Christians, for speaking against Allah. This even goes on in the UK. Christians cannot accept Allah and our teaching about God is different. And Islam cannot accept Christian teaching on the triune God. Nor does it accept the Christian claim that Jesus Christ is the only way to God and to salvation.
Question:
5. Does this mean that Muslims will not rest until they have silenced Christians, even when we are in our own country? Inevitably, it would mean Muslims would have the right to preach their own Allah, but they would stop Christians preaching a triune God and salvation by Jesus Christ alone. Is this correct?

As this forum continues, we hope that Muslim leaders in the West will give us assurance. We wish to live in peace, but violent men in Islam say the opposite. We hope that Imams and other leaders will give us the truth, once and for all, so that the terrible suspicions and hatred can subside. We call on Imams and other Muslim leaders in the UK and elsewhere to supply us with the facts. There is also a separate section for non-Muslim responses - but we wish these responses to be very well informed. Responses that contain hatred or violent talk will not be put on the web site.
Barry Napier, 26th September 2001

-----Original Message----- 
From: Imam Ahmed [mailto:imamahmedusa@hotmail.com] 
Sent: 21 September 2001 11:04 
Subject: RE: A Call To Muslim Leaders In The West

Peace to You,

Again, Your first part of Questions;

You asked: 1. Who, then, would support it? And why? Do they support it as Muslims, or as errant believers in Islam?

Only terrorists support terrorism (and violence in general.) Why they support is something I cannot answer any more than I can answer why evil exists in the World. The only answer I can give you is that it is a choice. I make the choice to be a good person, while, at the same time, I believe God helps me so. Qur'an states that not all those who say they are believers in God are believers(12.106) [I'm also aware Jesus taught almost the same thing in the Gospels!] This is because there have been, there are, and there always will be those who say they Love God and do things for Him (Though those "things" are blasepheme against His Holy name!)

You then asked: 2. You say that Muslims are against the killing of innocents. But, this implies that the killing of people who are Christian Doctrine from Bible Theology Ministries Muslim Forum Repsonsesnot innocent is alright. Is this what you are saying? If so, who is not innocent? Can you give us examples, and why they can be killed?

This is one thing Islam and some forms of Christianity are different. Islam does not say "you shall not kill" it says; "You shall not Murder."(Though I'm aware that is also what the Torah says in Hebrew.) Therefore, for example, in Islam, a murderer can be killed. And, another example, a self-defense is allowed in Islam. Self defense can be either personal, community, or a society - in that order.

The second part of Your Questions;

[Questions: you say Allah said that Muslims may overtake those who reject 'Me' by degrees. 1. Who are 'we' (God and Muslims??)? 2. What is meant by 'overtaking them by degrees'? Does this include killing or force? If not, what does it mean? Obviously, I am being 'picky' because of the current situation and because I do not know enough about Islam. Please advise.]

First of all, God does not say that Muslims may overtake those who reject Him. No, God says; "We will overtake them"

Second, WE is just for God alone. In Arabic, the word Nahnu/we when dealing with God is a plural of respect. Some Islamic Scholars have long argued that it means God and the Angels (who, in Islam, are those who do the work of God in Heaven and Earth, according to God's will!)

Third, the by 'overtaking them by degrees' means like what happens to Israelites in the Bible when they disregard God's message. For example, when Israel refuses the warnings of the Prophet Jeremiah, we know what God brings. Therefore, what God is saying is when Mankind disbelieves in God or His Messages to them, they are overtaken by degrees which they do not perceive. There are plenty of stories in the Qur'an which deal with this phrase - Nations being destroyed for disbelieving in God's message, Prophets punished to no end for disregarding God, People turning from God who later end up with more than they bargained for, etc.

And, I hope it is not news to you God killing people for disbelieving in His Wisdom. We know what happened to Egypt, Sodom, People of Noah, etc in the Bible (likewise mentioned in the Qur'an!) So, yes, it includes Killing. But God does His thing. No human is allowed to do for Him (except those God chooses to punish one another; for example, God chose to punish Israel with evil Babylon at the time of Prophet Jeremiah. Therefore, for God, killing two birds with one stone!)

You then asked; Why, then, do some Islamic governments allow the killing of, or force against, people who are not Muslims, especially Christians? Does this mean they are not acting as Muslims? Yet, they claim that what they do is Islamic.

I have already quoted to you verses from the Qur'an asking Prophet Muhammad (more authentic than any other muslim in his time or now) to leave people alone with God. God is saying; "leave Me and him whom I created ALONE" - the same chapter, God starts with; "Go, warn the people!" Let me quote to you the first part of the chapter;

The Covered One In the name of God, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[74.1] O you (Muhammad) who are clothed! [74.2] Arise and warn, [74.3] And your Lord do magnify, [74.4] And your garments do purify, [74.5] And uncleanness do shun, [74.6] And bestow not favors that you may receive again with increase, [74.7] And for the sake of your Lord, be patient. [74.8] For when the trumpet is sounded, [74.9] That, at that time, shall be a difficult day, [74.10] For the unbelievers, anything but easy. [74.11] Leave Me and him whom I created alone, [74.12] And gave him vast riches, [74.13] And sons dwelling in his presence, [74.14] And I adjusted affairs for him adjustably; [74.15] And yet he desires that I should add more!

God is saying that Your job is to warn and leave Me alone and those who reject it. Therefore, anyone who forces anyone to believe is therefore a contradiction to the Qur'an and its Narrator, God. Not all Islamic Governements are following God just like not all Christian Governments have followed God. I'm not going to apologise for the actions of wicked people. God deals with them as He deals with the next guy. As an Imam, my job is to teach the Faith, correctly. I do not judge. I condemn things, according to my knowledge, in the light of the Qur'an.

You said; "I did not make a racist comment in my last question. I have said that Muslims might be from any nationality, so my question was not racist. However, if this was the way it was taken, I offer an apology."

No, that is not where I meant. I said you asked a question which was racist. You asked; "Why do some Muslims who live in the West and accept its freedom of speech, openly support the horrors of violence, and yet are not spoken against by tolerant Muslims?" the question assumes that tolerant Muslims do not speak against those who support violence. This is not true at all. If you read the journals of the Muslims who live in the West (and elsewhere,) you will discover that Muslims condemn all evil actions, regardless if by Muslims or Non-Muslims.

Islam respects other faiths. And, more than any other religions, Islam is close to Christianity and Judaism. Muslims are allowed to marry the women of Jews and Christians, eat their food, sleep their houses, etc. And Islam is neutral between them in the sense that Islam accepts Jesus to be the Messiah while Islam rejects him being God or part of God (thus being neutral between Jews and Christians!) It saddens me when some of these three close religions' peoples dislike each other instead of being close. But I'm more saddened when some of the followers of these religions who teach to do good unto others as you'd do to yourself turn around and are unjust against one another. At this time, I would like to quote the Qur'an;

[Surrah Al Baqarrah, 2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

"Whoever believes in God and the Last day and does good" Peace to you and God bless!

Imam Ahmed

imamahmedusa@hotmail.com

---END---

Barry Napier's comment to Imam Ahmed's message dated 21st September 2001

Again, I thank Imam Ahmed for his clear explanation of the facts.
Yes, the Christian bible also tells us that not all who claim to be believers are real Believers, so I understand what you are saying.

Like you, I believe the Torah interpretation. Most Christians misunderstand the meaning of 'Thou shalt not kill', It actually means 'You will not murder'. So, we agree on that, too.

I now understand your explanation of what the Koran means by Allah overtaking people - yes, the Christian Bible says the same thing - that God will allow people who disobey Him to be overrun by others, or by 'circumstances'...even to death.

QUESTIONS: I understand that the true Muslim position is that God will take revenge, not individual Muslims. As you know, Imam, I am not slow to understand, but I have to make sure every little point is covered, so that others will also understand...

1. It seems, then, that when countries like Afghanistan pronounce a jihad against other countries, they are acting against Islam and are not being true Muslims. Rather they are just being terrorists. Is this a correct interpretation of what you are saying?
2. Does this also mean they are wrong to harbor terrorists, whether they are Muslims or not?
3. Does it also mean they are acting against Islam to have terrorist training camps on their soil?
I ask these questions because we want to know for sure if Islam is as peaceful as you say it is.
4. If, as you say, Islam is peaceful, and forcing people to submit to Allah is wrong, why is it that the original Muslims swept across the Middle East and killed everyone who refused to submit and became Muslims? Were they, too, acting against Islam?

I see what you mean about Western Muslims speaking against bad Muslims. All I can say is that their voices have not been strong enough, for many people in the West believe that most Muslims accept the atrocities of Muslim terrorists. I must add that we also believe that all terrorists are bad, no matter what religion they might be.

So, once again, I thank you Imam and repeat that though we might have some wrong ideas about Muslims, we can learn to see the truth of the situation and therefore live side by side.

Barry Napier

----Original Message-----
From: Michael Odegaard [mailto: modegaard@pbrplanning.com]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:37 AM
May I intervene here and referee a dispute of alleged racist comments?

Barry Napier’s statement: “Why do some Muslims who live in the West and accept its freedom of speech, openly support the horrors of violence, and yet are not spoken against by tolerant Muslims? Do you think Muslims have the right to speak violence against Western countries when they are guests or citizens?”

Meaning of Napier’s questions: Muslims do not provide freedom of speech/expression for Christians in many Islamic nations. If immigrant Muslims expect to enjoy the hospitality of American Christians who grant immigrants freedom of conscience, then American Christians need to witness better “group self-control”, even open chastisement by Muslim leaders toward the few reprobate Muslims who, through publicly encouraging terrorism, betray their religious values. As a group, Muslims appear to tolerate terrorism against Christians because their opposition to it is apparently invisible to American Christians. Christians don’t tolerate violence among their own peoples, and if Muslim Americans ever expect to earn the positive regard of other Americans, especially Christians, then good Muslims had better make their positive influence known by expunging impropriety within their own ranks. Many Christians have been frustrated with their declining power to contain the abuse of American freedoms and would appreciate organized assistance from both Christians and Muslims to clean up America’s moral environment.

Imam Ahmed’s response to Napier’s question: “The question asked is a racist and assumes that Muslims do not voice against evil Muslims. I hope you apologize to Muslims for asking such a racist question.”

Meaning of Ahmed’s analysis and accusation: Napier is uninformed and is publicly savaging Muslims as a group. In either case, since by his question he reinforces a false and damaging stereotype of “Muslims as protectors of terrorists”, Napier owes Muslims a public apology for his participation in furthering the victimizing of American Muslims. Ahmed’s identification of Napier’s error questions Napier’s goodwill; either Napier must apologize for bearing false witness against his neighbor (Muslims as a group) or suffer the public shame of actually harboring the racism Ahmed alleges.

My conclusion: Napier’s blindness to Muslim culture threatens his qualification as a representative of Christians, and Ahmed apparently is competing with, not seeking to understand, Napier.

In American democratic culture, Muslims are obliged to justify their social value as perceived “newcomers” in American society through their active engagement in pluralist public life and mass media. The media too often fails to provide Muslim news and perspectives to the detriment of those Americans who have little personal contact with Muslims. Too many of our perceptions about Muslim individuals and groups are unfortunately formed by third parties, including journalists and media moguls, whose personal political agendas are intentionally hidden; Americans need to apply a healthy dose of skepticism to news they receive from third parties by applying appropriate information “checks and balances”. Unfortunately, the practice of negatively reporting about individuals and groups naturally perpetuates racist opinions. Every opportunity to demonstrate a positive diversity of characteristics held by members of any group will help to insulate them from social isolation and potential victimization.

If “racism” may be understood to entail the maintenance of one party’s privilege through withholding another party’s right to the same privilege through unjust prejudicial stereotyping, then I believe that it is accurate to say that many, if not most, Americans still hold racist views of Muslims, since Muslim activities and perspectives are under- and mis-represented in mainstream American culture, especially through misrepresentation in mass media, which are important components of any democracy. As a strategic mechanism that benefits the political majority, racism is politically useless to Muslims living as a minority group under democratic jurisdiction, except when “playing the race card” falls upon the sympathetic ears and eyes of spectators of a one-on-one fight.

Individual members of both groups, Christians and Muslims, suffer greatly by our mutual isolation. As well as acknowledging our own faults, we need to confess our betrayal of our own professed identities, whether they be “white” (pure light) or “Muslim” (one submitted to God) if we ever expect to gain the humble sympathy of another’s heart. It’s interesting to note, thanks to Americans’ blessed sympathy for the underdog, that it’s rapidly becoming “uncool” to call oneself “white”; more and more urban Americans are committing “race treason”, feeling more comfortable using their “hyphenated” ethnic American identities (i.e., African-american, Anglo-american, Arab-american, Chinese-american, Cuban-american, German-american, Italian-american, Mexican-american, etc.) Perhaps it’s because ethnic minorities are fast becoming the new “majority” in America!

Let’s resolve to combat social ignorance and self-righteousness by practicing hospitality and courtesy toward our neighbor. With faith in God (or Allah), if we pursue friendship, justice and learning in our social interactions we can maximize our potential for health and happiness as fellow American citizens.
Sincerely,
Michael E. Malulani K. Odegaard
modegaard@pbrplanning.com

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From: Hayjacq@aol.com [mailto:Hayjacq@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 5:10 AM

I am a Christian but I felt that I should answer a couple of your questions regarding Islam and Palestine. In my college years, I studied religion extensively including Islam and the history of the early Church. (I even lived in Palestine.) With regard to your comments about "Infidels", I would like to point out that Christians and Jews are not defined as Infidels but as "people of the book". Islam accepts that these two groups are believers but disagrees with a few basic points that others can point out more clearly than I. In fact, Islam believes in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) and in the Gospels. They also believe in the Virgin Birth, though not God's paternity. This birth is explained as a miracle. They believe Jesus ascended into heaven and that he is the Jewish Messiah. The Quo'ran states clearly that the Nazarene (followers of Christ) are closest to the Muslims in faith. (I would like to add that all Palestinians, whom I met, were very kind and gracious towards me, including Palestinian Jews and Muslims.)

The Palestinian conflict is national. Both Christian and Muslim Palestinians are involved in the resistance to Israeli occupation which incompases the complete denial of basic civil rights. Palestinians, including Christians, are subject to house demolitions, random search and seizures, confiscation of land, and torture among other abuses at the hands of the Israeli government and settlers. I refer you to the following web site http://www.episcopalchurch.org/episcopal-life/ChrisGo.html which eloquently explains the plight of Christians in Palestine whose numbers have dwindled frightfully under Israeli persecution.
I also would like to point out that the Palestinian Muslims have long expressed the desire to have their Christians return home. There are many beautiful poems stating that, once the battle is won and Palestine is free, the Christians will return. Unfortunately, I cannot find any at this late hour. But I assure you that Palestinian Muslims deeply love their Christians and want them to return but also understand that most Palestinian Christians are complete pasivists and will not take up arms. This pasivism is understood, and frequently shared, by the Muslim majority.
I would like to also point out that Palestinians are also Samaritans, Druize, Bedouins, and Jews.

Mary

Hayjacq@aol.com

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Although Jesus was a Jew, he was a Palestinian, too.
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-----Original Message-----
Sent: 18 September 2001 20:36
From: Michael Von Shearer
Center For World Peace and Understanding
Mikaeel9@aol.com [mailto:Mikaeel9@aol.com]
Subject: Thank you for asking these important Questions.

Thank you for asking these so very important questions. It is thru questioning that we find solutions and answers to our questions. We hope everyone will benefit from these discussions and exchanges. I realize that from just visiting this site this first time I have moved forward.

Your first point in discussing the background of Christianity and Islam points out the accurate fact that, indeed, there are differences between Christianity and Islam. They are two religions, established by two different people, in differing areas, in different time periods.

We must also point out that there are many similarities between the two religions. some have claimed there are more similarities than there are differences between Christianity and Islam; but we have not done the statistical analysis to determine if that is true at this point. At least we can begin to count the similarities and inventory the results.

The first and most important similarities between Christianity and Islam is that both accept that Jesus Christ, called Rabb Issa in the Holy Quran as a person who lived upon the Earth.

Muslims accept Jesus Christ (Issa) as Messiah. Muslims also believe that Jesus Christ will at some point in time return to rule over earth and so are awaiting His Return.

Questions between the two religions as to the necessity of another suffering death to pay for anothers sins are debated. Islam holds that God requires each person to pay for their own shortcomings and sins themselves. .

I had believed that Christians were mistreated in the Middle East myself. When I visited Jordan however, I was surprised to find Christians and Muslims living together in peace and respect. I asked several people about it, and they told me they had agreed to disagree about somethings, and would allow God to decide between them regarding their differences, as the Quran instructs the Muslims to do. Christians of course, have similiar views, with the message of "Live Peaceably with others" being a widely accept doctrine of Christianity.

During the Gulf war the everyone noticed those doing the killings of the Arabs, who with both Muslim and Christian enlisted within their forces, tried to hide their murderous hypocracy thru the hiding of their crosses, knowing well they were violating the Commandments of God and their Savior in killing others. We have all suffered enough. It is time for a new approach.

To answer some of the questions you've posed, if one is knowledgeable of the true nature of things in the Middle East and the world, and had full knowledge of the levels of oppression experienced in many areas; would undoubtedly find that joy upon seeing ones oppressor or perceived enemy damaged; is a common human experience for everyone.

While the sense of relief at seeing ones enemy or oppressor damaged or destroyed is a normal human reaction, it is also scripturally wrong to do. I believe the scriptures of not only Christianity and Islam advise against feeling joy at the destruction of ones enemies, but of Judaism as well.

I hope this has been, at least, the beginning of some communication and explanation.

Warm regards,

Michael Von Shearer
Center For World Peace and Understanding
P.O. Box 355 Miranda,
California 95553
Tel:  (707) 943-3056
[mailto:Mikaeel9@aol.com]
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Barry Napier's comment to Michael Von Shearer's message dated 19th September 2001

Thank you, Michael, for your comments. Like you, I hope that though everyone might disagree about their beliefs, we might at least live together in peace, showing respect for each other as human beings. I agree that there are similarities in the content of both Christian and Islamic statements. Probably because we both share the same Old Testament basis. I must maintain that, whilst I am looking for ways to live together in peace, I cannot be ecumenical theologically or Biblically, because the differences hinge on what we think of Jesus Christ and how we receive salvation. Though Islam accepts Jesus as the Messiah, it does not accept Him to be the only Son of God and the only way to God through the shedding of His blood. This is where we must disagree, but not kill each other! However, it is true that each of us must pay for our own sins. The Christian, however, believes that when we are saved by Jesus Christ, Jesus takes our sins on His own self, on our behalf, so we are accepted by the Father, God. So, really, we think the Muslim has only half the truth. Even so, this forum is not here to discuss general Muslim or Christian beliefs, but to discuss what is the true Islamic belief on violence, so we must leave those points aside.

It is true that in some parts, Muslims and Christians live together. But in some places, Christians are killed, maimed, harassed and badly treated. These countries claim also to be Muslims, Yet, many Muslims in the West say that this is not Islamic! Question: So, why do they do it? On what holy book do they base their violence and threats? (We are referring to whole countries with their own council of clerics, not just to wrong individuals).

In the Gulf War it is my understanding that Christian padres and Christian soldiers were ordered not to wear crosses or to show any sign of Christianity, for fear of offending the Islamic state they were in. Question: Surely this shows a repressive regime that does not tolerate non-Islamic beliefs?

I agree that there is repression against Muslims in some parts of the Middle East. Violence against any man for his beliefs is wrong. you are right to assume that the Christian Bible says we must not take joy at seeing enemies killed or harmed. There is a case for just death of an enemy. The obvious one was the death of Hitler. But, we are not called to rejoice at the death of others, even if they are murderers who must be put to death.

Thank you again for your contribution, my friend. Barry Napier

-----Original Message----- 
From: Imam Ahmed [mailto:imamahmedusa@hotmail.com] 
Sent: 18 September 2001 09:29
Subject: RE: A Call To Muslim Leaders In The West

Salam or Peace To You,

It was honest of You to ask Muslims on their position and I will honestly answer, according to my knowledge, God willing:

The First Part of Questions;

You have asked: Do Muslim leaders in the UK truly and absolutely condemn the actions that led to the atrocity, or not?

As a Muslim Imam in the West(not in U.K. but in U.S.) I condemn the actions of violence, wheather today or yesterday or tomorow. Violence is violence. I condemn the cowardly act of terrorism in N.Y., PA and WA.

Your second Question was: 2. Do they separate that atrocity from the Palestine situation, or not?

When one asks a question, one must include all the info needed to answer such question. What is the Palestine situation? Palestine is a land which both Jews and Palestinians claim and each have their rightful claim to it. Palestine is very much seperate from what happened in America on Sept. 11th, 2001.

Your third question was: 3. Do they claim that only a few radicals would commit such atrocity, and that those radicals do not have the backing of Muslims in the West?

IF muslims committed such acts, I can tell you that the majority of Muslims do not support it. Muslims are against of the killings of innocents, because Islam is against the killings of innocents.

Second Part of Questions;

You asked: 1. The Koran contains a specific mention of the killing of infidels or unbelievers. As this is your own holy book, does this mean that though Muslims are outwardly condemning the atrocity, they are inwardly rejoicing...just as we saw in the disgusting scenes of joy in Palestine? If you truly condemn the atrocity, though the Koran says it is okay - does this mean Muslims are in contempt of their own holy book, by not joining the violence? If not, how do you reconcile the two?

As a Muslim Imam, I take a very much offense in that. The Qur'an does not the killing of infidels. You need to read the Qur'an with its history and cannot misquote it. You claimed the Qur'an mentions of Killings of Infidels while you did not mention where. In Islam, it is accepted that anything God says to Muhammad(Pbuh) in the Qur'an is said to all Believers. Well, God says to Muhammad(PBUH) the following:

[68.44] So leave Me and him who rejects this announcement; We will overtake them by degrees, from whence they perceive not: [73.11] And leave Me and the rejecters, the possessors of ease and plenty, and respite them a little. [74.11] Leave Me and him whom I created alone,

Therefore, as God says to Muhammad/Believers above, we leave God to his creations. And, a whole chapter has been revealed about this which is called "The Unbelievers"(Chapter 109) which simply says; To Each His Own(in more words than that!) So, no, Islam does not teach the killing of unbelievers. Islam teaches to leave them alone to God.

Also, not all Palestine rejoiced in America's tragedy, but a few. And, even if all Palestinians rejoiced, that can be explained. Palestinians and Americans are at war(indirectly.) I mean this in the fact that most Palestinians live to destroy Israel while America is committed in having Israel there(and supports it financially.) And this has no impact whatsoever on Islam or Muslims. The Palestinian cause is National. This is why there are not non-Arab Muslims fighting for Palestine. So, I hope you learn to seperate the two. Islam is a universal religion(which Israeli Muslims, Palestinian Muslims, and American Muslims share.)

Your second question was: 2. If some Muslims become so violent, does this mean all others have the potential to follow the same pattern?

Not anymore than all Christians having the potential to become Hitlers. No, of course, not. Not all Muslims can ever become the same. Muslims will always include of good people, bad people, and neutral people, just like everyone else. Islam is seperate from that and is always good. Neither Islam nor ALL Muslims can be blamed for any evil acts a few may commit. All humans have the potential to be either good or evil and the choice lies upon each and every human's shoulder.

Your last question was: 3. Why do some Muslims who live in the West and accept its freedom of speech, openly support the horrors of violence, and yet are not spoken against by tolerant Muslims? Do you think Muslims have the right to speak violence against Western countries when they are guests or citizens?

This is not true. Muslims speak against evil Muslims all the time. Muslims have denounced sects based on their evil and racist beliefs against others in the West and rest of the World. The question asked is a racist and assumes that Muslims do not voice against evil Muslims. I hope you apologize to Muslims for asking such a racist question.

Thank You And God Bless,

Imam Ahmed
 [mailto:imamahmedusa@hotmail.com] 

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Barry Napier's comment to Imam Ahmed's message dated 19th September 2001

Thank you, Imam Ahmed, for your courteous and honest reply. Your personal condemnation is very clear, for which I am grateful. It is interesting to read that you believe both Palestinians and Israelis have a claim to Palestine. This is true - but Israel only has a claim when she obeys God. Though a Christian, I must say this.

 Questions: you say that the 'majority' would not support violence.
 1. Who, then, would support it? And why? Do they support it as Muslims, or as errant believers in Islam? 
2. You say that Muslims are against the killing of innocents. But, this implies that the killing of people who are not innocent is alright. Is this what you are saying? If so, who is not innocent? Can you give us examples, and why they can be killed.

I apologise for any offense - I obtained that information from news reports containing Muslim comments.

Questions: you say Allah said that Muslims may overtake those who reject 'Me' by degrees.
1. Who are 'we' (God and Muslims??)? 
2. What is meant by 'overtaking them by degrees'? Does this include killing or force? If not, what does it mean? Obviously, I am being 'picky' because of the current situation and because I do not know enough about Islam. Please advise.

You appear to be saying that the atrocities of killing and force are not Islamic. Question: Why, then, do some Islamic governments allow the killing of, or force against, people who are not Muslims, especially Christians? Does this mean they are not acting as Muslims? Yet, they claim that what they do is Islamic.

I did not make a racist comment in my last question. I have said that Muslims might be from any nationality, so my question was not racist. However, if this was the way it was taken, I offer an apology.

Thank you for your reply, my friend. I hope that we can all live together socially, though we may not agree on our beliefs. Barry Napier